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Todd McNair v. NCAA Update -- Very Interesting News

  • Found on another site...just sharing.

    TrojanJustice wrote:

    So I checked out the public docket to see what's going on in this case and even paid a few bucks to get a key court order where the judge ruled on recent discovery motions. The big news is that McNair's lawyer filed a motion to obtain a commission to take Paul Dee's deposition in Florida. This is standard practice when you need to depose an uncooperative witness in another state. The court granted this commission on April 24, so very likely at some point this month the most corrupt administrator in the history of college football will be profusely sweating as he is grilled under oath about his breathtaking hypocrisy and abuse of power.

    This development comes on the heels of the NCAA being ordered on 4/19/12 to produce all their internal emails about the Reggie Bush investigation. The NCAA vigorously opposed the production of the emails but lost. Not only that, after they failed to prevent the discovery of their emails, the NCAA tried to get a second bite at the apple by objecting to the courts' written ruling with an attempt to limit the production to only emails that specifically mention Tod McNair and were only between members of the infraction committee. So in other words, if there was, for instance, an email between a member of the staff -- not the committee -- and Lake asking Lake to doctor evidence, the NCAA would be able to withhold that evidence.

    The court, in shooting down the NCAA yet again, seemed surprised by the NCAA's brazen request and stated in its ruling that "Restriction of the e-mails to only members of the Committee on Infractions is too limited as the contact by investigators and staff with the subject of Mr. McNair surely was not limited to the Committee."

    Speaking as a lawyer, this is the kind of stunt you often see when the other side knows they are sitting on highly incriminating evidence and is trying to do all they can to prevent its disclosure short of criminal obstruction of justice.

    No trial date set yet, probably about 6 months out based upon the state of the proceedings.

    Beware, so long as you live, of judging men by their outward appearance. -- Jean de La Fontaine

  • This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing it. Fight on!

  • Thanks for posting this....I would love to see this case expose the NCAA for the vile and corrupt organization it is...and I hope McNair gets millions!

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    "It's what a brother would do for another brother"

  • It would make me so happy to see the NCAA get their asses handed to them in court. Do you think this gets settled before any more info is presented?

  • zabba

    I was just wondering about McNair... Thanks for posting...

  • Thanks for sharing the info...very interesting to see what happens with this.

  • IRONMIKE4SC

    Out of curiosity, what is to prevent an agency such as the NCAA in this case, from producing only some of the mail, but not all... after carefully reviewing the documentation and ensuring there is no reference or telltale trail to some of the potentially more incriminating emails that might be conveniently omitted from their document production?

    Would seem to me that someone would have been hard at work mitigating this as a potential damaging issue for quite some time.

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    .................... 47 Bowl Appearances - 11 National Championships - 7 Heisman Trophy Winners ..................

  • This is great news. I hope the truth is allowed to come out so that the world can see what a complete fraud the NCAA is.

    On a side note, it's quite ironic that Paul Dee is now the one getting deposed in court.

  • First of all, THANK YOU for going to these lengths to get a hold of this information and keep us apprised. I have a few questions for you.

    "The big news is that McNair's lawyer filed a motion to obtain a commission to take Paul Dee's deposition in Florida. This is standard practice when you need to depose an uncooperative witness in another state. The court granted this commission on April 24"

    Can we make this a pay-per-view event? j/k

    1) Do you expect the information gleaned from this deposition to ever see the light of day? I'm concerned that a settlement offer will be extended by the NCAA/Paul Dee that will stipulate the information remains forever secretive?

    "Speaking as a lawyer, this is the kind of stunt you often see when the other side knows they are sitting on highly incriminating evidence and is trying to do all they can to prevent its disclosure short of criminal obstruction of justice."

    Will USC have the possibility of one day seeing all of this information, or is a settlement possible that would preclude even USC from viewing any of this information?

    I realize you would only be offering an educated guess, but your experience is helpful.

    Obviously one of my biggest concerns at this point is a very large settlement for Todd McNair that results in no one else understanding the truth about what happened.

    What else would cause the NCAA to want this information from ever seeing the light of day, except that being exposed in this manner would be incredibly harmful for business.

  • Very interesting...hang 'em all!

  • Unfortunately for the NCAA, this order governs and grants access to the original electronic email copies that are digitally stored on the servers and cannot be altered without destroying the entire email trail. There is an immediate cease and desist order as part of the overall order/ruling which should prevent the NCAA from destroying said documents, assuming they adhere to this order. The NCAA can, however, delete those digital emails on the servers, but run the risk of further questioning and will certainly destroy the NCAA's case.

    In either scenario, a good computer forensic investigator will uncover any attempts to hide or destroy these digital documents... Let's hope McNair's lawyers have employed a good computer forensics investigator..

    This post was edited by achindah 23 months ago

    Beware, so long as you live, of judging men by their outward appearance. -- Jean de La Fontaine

  • Wow thanks for the update. Very interesting I can't wait to see what comes of this.

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  • IRONMIKE4SC

    I'll admit to being a bit out of touch with how all these legal proceedings work, but I was under the distinct impression, based on something I read or heard somewhere several years ago, that USC would fully support McNairs action against the NCAA, even to the point of providing legal representation, or cosponsoring representation...

    If that is the case, wouldnt USC be privy to everything that is occurring in the McNair case already?

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    .................... 47 Bowl Appearances - 11 National Championships - 7 Heisman Trophy Winners ..................

  • They might be "privy" to the information, but if the case is settled and a nondisclosure agreement is signed, they can't use that information.

  • IRONMIKE4SC

    That much I kinda figured on my own, and aside from the obvious black cloud it would cast over an organization that seems to base its existence off of hiding behind the cloak of secrecy... What could possibly be done to the NCAA if documents were destroyed, and this was subsequently discovered...

    suppose the potential damage from these documents could be worse than the repercussions from their destruction. Why wouldnt someone dispose of anything they had a high degree of certainty could not be reproduced. risk assessment.

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    .................... 47 Bowl Appearances - 11 National Championships - 7 Heisman Trophy Winners ..................

  • Hopefully Todd is more interested in clearing his name and exposing the NCAA by allowing the light of day to shine on their activities.

    If he settles, they'll couch the language in the legalese by stating it isn't an admission of guilt or wrongdoing... Blah blah blah.

    A settlement like that would still make him toxic to most college programs.

  • I had also heard that USC was supporting the McNair case, and it would make sense, as it would:

    1) be the right thing to do

    2) be a way to go after the NCAA without putting USC directly back into the NCAA's crosshairs

    //

    I realize there are a lot of people on the board who don't like Haden because they think he's too weak in dealing with the NCAA, but I think it's actually a case of Haden being very Machiavellian. Sometimes an assassination via a knife in the back is more effective than a frontal attack. Machiavelli advised that the Prince should smile to his enemies while plotting their downfall. Haden is a very smart guy, who has no doubt read "The Prince" and knows how the game is played.

    Haden also knows that the NCAA can crush a school based on the weakest of evidence. So his first priority is to keep the NCAA from coming down on SC again and trying to hit SC with the death penalty, given that SC is already on probation and how some in the NCAA would love to see SC disappear.

    We've seen how the NCAA works, and so has Haden. None of us like it, but the reality is that the best way to get the NCAA off your back is to kiss their ass and say all the right things in public, and become a part of their club- hosting seminars, being involved on various committees, etc. OSU got off light because Gordon Gee and Gene Smith are tight with the NCAA administration. Haden is building those relationships with the NCAA and doing things "their way" to get SC into the "Protected Circle" and off of the "Outlaw List". Let's call this his defensive strategy- protect SC by publicly ingratiating SC with the NCAA.

    As for his offensive strategy, the first inclination I had that Haden was working under the surface to push back against the NCAA was when he appealed the NCAA sanctions. We all knew that appeal was going nowhere. But the real reason for the appeal became apparent when we saw that the appeal delayed the sanctions long enough to buy CLK the time he needed to build up SC's roster to a level that could sustain the program through the sanctions.

    By bringing in that monster class, the effect of the scholarship reductions was dramatically reduced from what it would have been if the sanctions had kicked in immediately. Haden and CLK clearly worked hand-in-hand to use the NCAA's own by-laws to delay the effect of the sanctions in a way that allowed SC to remain competitive during this time, thus frustrating the intent of the NCAA's sanctions.

    The McNair case is another phase of offense. By quietly supporting his legal case, SC gets to go after the NCAA via deposition and discovery, and it looks like there are some smoking guns in there. If these come out, SC will be very much vindicated and the NCAA will get raked over the coals for the corrupt organization it is.

    But by doing it through McNair, SC isn't directly attacking the NCAA and making themselves more of a target, simply setting themselves up to be the beneficiaries of any info that comes to light in the McNair case by supporting him behind the scenes.

    It is very much the type of thing that Machiavelli would recommend- Keep smiling to the NCAA to their faces, while working to crush them behind their backs.


  • Great post. I just hope the issue of the NCAA unfairly punishing USC is finally displayed to the media and public. How North Carolina, Ohio State, and South Carolina got small penalties when they had worse problems need to be answered. Auburn not getting penalized and along with Florida and Alabama not get investigated is ridiculous.

  • Since this isn't a criminal case, I don't think much will be done to the NCAA other than being held in contempt of court. However, doing so will almost ensure McNair's victory.

    As to your second question, good point. The NCAA is obviously aware that said documents coupled with whatever ruling will have retroactive impacts as it pertains to previously adjudicated NCAA cases. That being the case, McNair's lawyers have but to prove that USC was impacted due to McNair being an agent of the University...this is where I believe USC has an interest in the case

    This is assuming that Todd does not settle of course...

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by achindah 23 months ago

    Beware, so long as you live, of judging men by their outward appearance. -- Jean de La Fontaine

  • At the point of settling all of this, I hope that USC can reclaim her victories at the end of 2004 and all of 2005. And, as such, she can then reclaim the crystal football and 7th Heisman Trophy, both of which were wrongly stripped from her.

    TLK cool

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  • In short, no, this will never see the light of day and will be settled out of court. The potential damages for the NCAA are too great.

    What else you ask? It forces a legal/judicial review of the USC case, and possibly others, as it relates to the McNair case...and we all know that the NCAA's case on USC hinges on McNair. USC now has the legal avenue for due process which the NCAA cannot circumvent...

    Beware, so long as you live, of judging men by their outward appearance. -- Jean de La Fontaine

  • No need to fear about a settlement.

    When the lawsuit was first served the NCAA said they looked forward to it and would fight this vigorously.

    That is, unless you don't have faith in the NCAA and what they claim.

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  • If by "fight vigorously" they actually mean, "hand over a huge sum of cash to make the suit go away," then yea, that makes sense.

  • IronMike asked:
    "What could possibly be done to the NCAA if documents were destroyed, and this was subsequently discovered."

    I disagree that you say that not much will be done except hold the NCAA in contempt of court.

    FRCP 37(b)(2)(a)(i-vii) would control what happens if a party destroys documents in order to disobey a court order.

    The court could:
    - Direct that the claims made by McNair be taken as established for purposes of the action
    - Prohibit the NCAA from opposing McNair's claims or prohibit the NCAA from introducing certain evidence
    - Render a default against the NCAA and in favor of McNair

    Those are all pretty harsh penalties, and the NCAA definitely doesn't want to risk those.

    The only thing that the NCAA could really rely on to protect them (if they actually tried this) is FRCP 37(e), which deals with failure to provide electronically stored information. That statute states that a court cannot impose sanctions, but ONLY in the event that the documents were lost as the result of a routine, good-faith operation of their computer systems. There's no way that would work in this case, as investigators would disprove that claim in a heartbeat.

  • I love this post, always thought had an agenda to kick the NCAA in its teeth while playing nicey nice. Can't really prove the truth in that, it's just a guy feel.

  • AbsenteeTrojan:

    How's it going? I agree and paraphrased FRCP 37 in several of my responses, to include my response to IronMike when I said "doing so will almost ensure McNair's victory"...Deleting or withholding emails will be contempt of court and will cause more issues including fines and POSSIBLE jail time. The key piece and one of the most damaging is that Dees can not refuse to talk. Could try to plead the 5th but that is unlikely to be allowed unless he did something criminal. You can assert the 5th Amendment in civil proceedings, but, unlike in criminal proceedings, a jury can be told about it and can assume the statements would have been damaging.

    As this is not a criminal case again the damages will be limited to those you cited in FRCP 37. If there is a smoking gun the NCAA will settle before allowing either Dees to speak or the emails to be released.

    Beware, so long as you live, of judging men by their outward appearance. -- Jean de La Fontaine